Sep 26, 2023
This week we dive into the world of titanium frame building withBrad Bingham. Based in the Steamboat Springs, Colorado, Brad hasbeen crafting custom frames for an impressive 27 years. Startinghis journey as a welding enthusiast in high school, Brad's passionfor making things led him to the art of bike building. But hisskills go beyond frames – he even built his own home with the helpof his retired custom home builder father.
In this episode, Brad reveals the importance of learning how todo things for oneself and consulting experts. He shares hisexperience working for a dental equipment manufacturer beforediving headfirst into the world of bikes. From working at renownedbike manufacturer Moots to eventually taking over Kent EricksonCycles, Brad's journey is a testament to his dedication andexpertise.
Brad and our host, Randall Jacobs, delve into the nitty-grittydetails of bike design. They discuss everything from tube selectionand mitering to the impact of weight bias and alignment. Brad'sdeep knowledge of geometry, materials, and manufacturing processesmakes this episode a must-listen for any bike enthusiast oraspiring frame builder.
But what sets Brad apart from the rest? Well, his attention todetail and commitment to customer satisfaction are second to none.As the owner of Bingham Built Bikes, he prioritizes opencommunication and mutual respect. With his wife, Hannah, by hisside, they handle everything from bike design and production tobackend operations. Their tiny operation may be limited in size,but it's big on passion and craftsmanship.
Binghm Built Bicycles Website
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So I'm, I'm BradBingham. I'm, uh, based out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and I'ma custom titanium frame builder. Uh, been doing that here inColorado for, gosh, going on what, 27 years?
[00:00:17]Randall Jacobs (host): Wow. 20, 27years,
[00:00:20]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yep.
[00:00:21]Randall Jacobs (host): you don'tlook, you started welding when you were like eight.
[00:00:27]Brad Bingham: Uh, no. I, I reallystarted welding in earnest, um, senior in high school. I.
[00:00:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Nokidding.
[00:00:36]Brad Bingham: And then, yeah, I movedhere to, to Steamboat right after I turned 20. And
[00:00:41]Randall Jacobs (host): so me aboutthose first welding experiences. How'd you get into it? Was itstarting with bikes or was it, uh, a general, was it a vocationalprogram? What was the nature of
[00:00:51]Brad Bingham: it, it was very bikecentric, so I, I knew that I wanted to construct bike frames, uh,mountain bikes specifically. And to do that, I needed to know howto, you know, join two tubes together. And at the time, I mean, Iwas 18 years old and didn't have any welding experience whatsoever.So I went and took a, uh, evening like, uh, community college TIGwelding course.
It was like a 75 hour course and took that in the, in theevenings after work. Um, And I walked in there with a couple ofparted off pieces of Reynolds bike tubing and I said, I just needto know how to put these two things together.
[00:01:40]Randall Jacobs (host): And so this isreally, I mean, this has been your path in life since
[00:01:45]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:45]Randall Jacobs (host): beginning.
[00:01:46]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, that's,uh, it seems like an increasingly rare phenomenon to have suchclarity at a young age at what you wanna do and then to go out anddo it. So, uh, good on you. Some of us, some of us, it takes a lotlonger.
[00:01:58]Brad Bingham: Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean,I was, I was always really passionate about making things. I, Ijust always needed to be making something or working on something.And luckily the bikes found me, you know, 'cause I was a rider and,um, the idea of building bikes was, you know, not, not anythingthat crossed my mind until a good friend of mine said, well, whydon't you just build your own. And that was, that was thegenesis.
[00:02:31]Randall Jacobs (host): So, and wewere just talking a moment ago, I, I, I was apologizing for the,the state of affairs in my house. 'cause I'm in the process ofbuilding a new house around the husk of a, of a old derelict, but,but lovely, uh, home that I just purchased. And you mentioned youbuilt your home as well. So tell me a little bit about that.
I'm kind of curious about this builder mentality,
[00:02:53]Brad Bingham: yeah. So yeah, I didnot, you know, obviously I did not build the entire home myself.Um, my dad was a, um, was a custom home builder for 25 years, andso he was retired at the time, and this was 2000, like 2002 to2004. Um, he had just recently finished a home helping out mysister build, build a home in Bend, Oregon. And so about a, uh,about a year, year and a half after that, Um, I talked him intocoming out here and, and helping me build a home. So it was a big,big project, but really, he, I have to say he did at least 80, 85%of the heavy lifting. Like, yeah, I mean, he was, he was amazing.He's, he passed away in 2008. Um, but he was just a super smart guyand really good at building homes and being efficient, not wastingmaterials.
Um, you know, I was a, I was working for Moots at the time.Didn't have a huge salary or anything. It's not like I was a richguy. We were really trying to build it as inexpensively aspossible.
[00:04:11]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm. Well,and I think, um, granted, sounds like your father was far moreexpert than mine, but we share that. Um, my, my father passed in ohseven and I didn't get to build a home with him, but I did get towork on, um, a couple of properties that, um, uh, he had, uh, myparents had purchased with, um, a aunt and uncle.
And these properties were always underwater and always, youknow, falling apart. And they'd never had the budget to do, youknow, to hire out. And so it's just like, all right, we need tofigure this out. And that's how I learned. You know, one of the keyways that I learned how to use tools, how to do things for myself,and there's a certain, um, there's a certain sense of, um, onepersonal responsibility and also with that personal, um, uh,competence and confidence that goes with learning from a young ageto do things like, you don't need to hire an expert.
You can consult experts. Maybe sometimes you do, but you canlearn this. So that's, uh, that would seem to have carried into,uh, a lot of things in, in, uh, in what you've done starting at age20 welding frames
[00:05:21]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. And priorto that I was, you know, I was always on my dad's job sites, um,mostly cleaning up, you know? Um,
[00:05:31]Randall Jacobs (host): as, as onedoes, and at when you're a grunt.
[00:05:34]Brad Bingham: yep, yep. But, butyeah, you do learn a lot and yeah. Good stuff. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, so tellme, so you mentioned you, you take this course, right? You're,you're in high school or just outta high school, and you go to workfor Moots right after. How'd that come about?
[00:05:51]Brad Bingham: No, I was, uh, I hadthe opportunity in high school to be part of a cooperative workexperience, uh, with the world's largest dental equipmentmanufacturer. So I worked, I worked in their engineeringdepartment, um, really as a drafts person, uh, um, junior, senioryear in high school. And then that carried over into, after highschool.
Um, I was not a, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of lifethings that, that kind of slowed me down from going to college. Um,my mom was recovering from some pretty harsh cancer and I wasn'treally excited to, to leave her. My parents were recently divorced,like, you know, all these things kind of piled up to me staying,staying in my hometown for a year after high school.
And I continued to work, uh, in that engineering department.Kind of the, the, uh, path would've been to go into mechanicalengineering from there. But I, I kind of looked around and I waslike, I don't think this is, for me, I just, you know, I don'twanna just be kind of a cog and cog in the wheel, you know, cog inthe machine.
Um, I wanted to have a, you know, more greater grasp, more ofthe whole scope of projects. Um, and that's, you know, bike, bikebuilding allows you to do that.
[00:07:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, for, forbetter or for worse, in a lot of regards, especially in thebeginning when you're trying to get off the ground,
[00:07:24]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:25]Randall Jacobs (host): it's theproduct, it's the business, it's the marketing. And which is reallyjust another way of saying how do you communicate, how do you buildawareness? How do you connect with people?
Um, So, so then, you know, walk us through kind of what, whatthat journey looks like.
[00:07:40]Brad Bingham: So, you know, it's,it's funny, I, uh, I, like I said, you know, A gentleman that Iworked with, uh, who was a really good friend, uh, at the dental,Manu dental equipment manufacturer. Um, he ended up becoming, youknow, years later he was director of engineering. Uh, this is a bigmajor company, like 1200 employees on site, um, major manufacturingcapabilities right there in my hometown, which is just outside ofPortland, Oregon.
[00:08:12]Randall Jacobs (host): and what, um,what types of products
[00:08:15]Brad Bingham: oh, uh,
[00:08:16]Randall Jacobs (host): ha have I hadyour products in my mouth at some point?
[00:08:19]Brad Bingham: uh, maybe not in your,maybe not literally in your mouth, but, but potentially actually,yeah, you probably have like the, uh, you know, the little suctionwand that, uh, goes in your mouth while you're at the dentist.Yeah. I mean, they
[00:08:32]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah.
[00:08:33]Brad Bingham: they even producedthat. So the company was a.
[00:08:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[00:08:37]Brad Bingham: You walk into, youwalk, walk into certain dental offices, and you'll see that everysingle piece in that office, it's me, sorry, is uh, every singlepiece has adec on it.
Literally from the chair that you're sitting on to the cabinets,literally everything.
[00:09:00]Randall Jacobs (host): So what I'mhearing is here you are, this, this young kid in, in, in highschool, just outta high school. You get this, this opportunity towork in a very large, uh, organization in with, you know, seasonedprofessionals doing, you know, medical products at a whole notherlayer, um, of complexity in terms of design and development andsupply chain and things like that.
And so you're dealing with that sort of thing. Um, and that waskind of your jumping off point.
[00:09:30]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. And I, um,I got into the bike building thing because my buddy that I, I rodewith, I broke a couple of cannondale and he said, why don't youjust make, why don't you just make your own?
[00:09:43]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:09:44]Brad Bingham: so of course I did. Andit kind of spiraled, you know, I was in his garage late everysingle night machining something.
And, uh, you know, kind of once I built that first bike, it wasa really great experience, but I was kind of like, well, what's,what's next in this? And then he said, why don't make one outtatitanium? And, uh, so I went and took the United Bicycle InstituteTitanium Frame Building course in 1996. Um, and it was taught byGary Helfrich, uh, who is one of the, one of the founders ofMerlin.
[00:10:21]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:10:22]Brad Bingham: So, uh, yeah, throughthat process, moots got ahold of my name and. I got asked to comeout to Colorado to interview for a welding position, and you know,as soon as they offered it to me, I took it. And kind of the, youknow, the rest is, is history. And, you know, I did feel like thatwas a wonderful opportunity I got out here and I kind of initiallythought to myself like, okay, I'll, I'll do a year out here, figureit out, and then I'll get back to Oregon and I'll start my ownbrand.
[00:10:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:10:59]Brad Bingham: But I got out toColorado and it's like, wow, I'm, I'm not gonna go home and buildbetter bikes than this. And, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna go step,step away and just immediately be building better bikes. That's notgonna happen. Um, and I fell in love with, with Colorado and the,the stoke that people have here.
[00:11:24]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:11:24]Brad Bingham: So,
[00:11:25]Randall Jacobs (host): And what, whatis it about, you know, what was it about working at Moots that wasparticularly special for you, and like, who were some of yourmentors? You know, what, what'd you learn there?
[00:11:35]Brad Bingham: Well, it, it was aopportunity to work from the, the very bottom, you know, the verybottom to the very top kind of. And so I was able to experience,you know, every, every part of manufacturing while I was there,every, every part of manufacturing, a bicycle frame from titanium.Uh, so I started out welding, but pretty, I did that pretty solidfor, uh, five years, five, six years, you know, tons and tons ofwelding.
But while at that time, Kent Erickson was still, um, employed byMoots, and so even in those first few years I was helping, youknow, Kent never used a computer. I brought some CAD skills withme, and so pretty quickly I was involved in design work and anylittle part he wanted to get machined, you know, we needed to do adrawing and I was a drafts person so I could create an engineering,you know, a print, uh, that somebody could read and manufacture itreally easily.
So, um, with a, with a lot of those skills that I brought, I wasable to evolve at moots. You know, I, I look back on it and Ithink, oh, it, you know, happened pretty quick, but, but really ittook a, took a number of years and by 2004, um, I was theproduction manager at Moots and managing, you know, the flow of theflow of products through the, through the factory.
And, um, at the time it was about, I think it was about 14 or 16guys and gals that were making the bikes. So, um, You know, andthen designing all the bikes after Kent left. Um, and I was, uh,designing tooling and, you know, as new specifications came out, wewould incorporate those into the bikes and yeah, just making it allhappen.
And then, uh, yeah, I finally, finally got tired of the, thehigh volume, you know, it just got, it got really, really big and Iwas, no, I was then just, like I said, kind of a cog in themachine. And, um, and then not long after my dad passed away, Ikind of felt like it was time to make a change.
[00:14:09]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, that'll,that'll definitely catalyze some, some serious self-reflection forsure. Um, uh, I think in my case as well, when my, when my dad gotsick, um, you know, he, he had a, in my dad's case, it was a, abrain tumor. So as a type that you usually don't, uh, get more thanlike 6, 8, 10 months from, um, and from then it was like, okay, Imoved back, moved back home, um, and resolve like, okay, what arethe things that I would like to have done if I were on my deathbedand that I would like to do and share with my father while he'sstill around and like, you know, shifted my whole lifetrajectory.
[00:14:51]Brad Bingham: Sure.
[00:14:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:14:52]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:14:53]Randall Jacobs (host): So,
[00:14:54]Brad Bingham: I, yeah, I hope, didyou get the, did you get the six or eight, 10 months with 'em?
[00:14:59]Randall Jacobs (host): uh, yeah, he,he lasted about eight months or so. He passed, uh, about 10, 10days before his 50th and my 25th birthdays. We shared the samebirthday. And, um, it was, I wanted to, I wanted to land a bigaccount in the company I was working with. I wanted to, um, getinto a good grad school, and I wanted to get my pro upgrade as aracer.
And I got two, two of the three before he passed. And then, uh,I had a, a good season, uh, later on, uh, the, the, the followingyear and, uh, was a, a Pac fodder pro for a hot minute.
[00:15:39]Brad Bingham: Gotcha.
[00:15:40]Randall Jacobs (host): again, likethat, that reckoning of seeing, seeing a, you know, a parentalfigure and someone that I admired and learned a lot from, you know,I.
Towards the end of life, it maybe reflect a lot on, on what Iwanna do with my own.
[00:15:52]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:15:54]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah,
[00:15:54]Brad Bingham: Yeah. 50 is, 50 is waytoo young.
[00:15:58]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah.
[00:15:59]Brad Bingham: Way too young. I, mydad was 63 when he passed away,
[00:16:02]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:16:03]Brad Bingham: felt way too young.
[00:16:06]Randall Jacobs (host): I think it isnever a good age to lose a parent. Like it, it just brings with itdifferent challenges. Like when, when you're a child, it, it's likeyou, you need that parental figure to help guide you through lifewhen you're going through your, your twenties or so, you try todiscover yourself and that guidance can be helpful if you're inyour forties or fifties.
I haven't had that experience though. I will. Uh, my mother'sstill around and still healthy, but, you know, then it's likeyou're confronting your own mortality. Uh, so part, part of thecycle of life.
[00:16:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah, definitely.Definitely.
[00:16:40]Randall Jacobs (host): So, so yourdad, your dad passes, you decide it's time. So what'd that processlook like?
[00:16:48]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So, um, I choseto, yeah, I chose to leave the job I'd been in for 15 years and,um, you know, they were, moots was a, they were a little surprisedby it because I had been there for so long and, um, you know, atthe time I was, I was playing a pretty integral. Um, so I, I wentto part-time for, you know, I gave them a healthy notice and wentto part-time and then, you know, finally trailed off.
Um, and that was spring-ish of 2012, and I had no, I had noplans. I had bought a airstream, uh, to renovate, so I did a, likea shell off restoration on a 1973 Airstream and,
[00:17:44]Randall Jacobs (host): offrenovation. So like you pulled the shell off the chassis.Sandblasted the chassis.
[00:17:51]Brad Bingham: exactly.
[00:17:52]Randall Jacobs (host): All right.This, this, we need, we need to do a tangent on this 'cause I, Ialso did a, um, uh, a camper build at one point. So tell me aboutthis Airstream. I'm super curious.
[00:18:00]Brad Bingham: what, what was thecamper you did?
[00:18:03]Randall Jacobs (host): Um, mine,mine, I built out of a 15 foot vno motorcycle trailer.
'cause I had a, I had a Honda Element, which is a four cylinder,um, boxy, little, little adventure mobile that I wanted to, youknow, use as a, you know, I wanted to be able to tow around thecountry. So I built this ultra light, um, largely self-sustainingkind of off-grid trailer, you know, solar thin film, solar on theroof and water recycling for the toilet and all the otherstuff.
And yeah, it was, it was an experience.
[00:18:34]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah,mine was, uh, it was my brother-in-law's folks up in Montana. I wasup in Montana in 2011 for, uh, like a, a US Cup mountain bikerace,
[00:18:51]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:18:52]Brad Bingham: in, up in Missoulaand,
[00:18:54]Randall Jacobs (host): What, whatyear is this?
[00:18:56]Brad Bingham: 2011.
[00:18:57]Randall Jacobs (host): 2011. Okay. Sothis is towards the tail end. I, I did the, the, um, when it wasthe Kenda Cup. I don't know if they were still sponsoring. It'slike Show Air was a shipping logistics company that was sponsoring,this is like oh 8, 0 9, maybe 2010. So I think maybe the tailend.
[00:19:14]Brad Bingham: Yeah, that soundsright. I don't even know if Kenda and Sho were still involved.Like, I, I raced like the, um, like 2010 I think I was doing likethe, like Sand Dimas and Fontana.
[00:19:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. I didthose races.
[00:19:30]Brad Bingham: Yep. Did you do
[00:19:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. So, so,so you were a, uh, you were a private tier pro as well, or are weon a team or,
[00:19:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah, I was, you know,it was moots.
[00:19:39]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah.
[00:19:39]Brad Bingham: I was riding to Mootsand just having, just having fun with it.
[00:19:44]Randall Jacobs (host): What, whatyears did you race? I wonder if we actually lined up next to eachother
[00:19:48]Brad Bingham: well I raced, I racedpretty hard like nine, 10.
[00:19:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, same youdo. Sea otter.
[00:19:59]Brad Bingham: Uh, oh gosh. I don'tthink I did sea otter until like 2016.
[00:20:06]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[00:20:07]Brad Bingham: My, um, yeah, my, mypro mountain bike racing, it got, got sidetracked by two hipsurgeries.
[00:20:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Oof.
[00:20:20]Brad Bingham: So I'm trying toremember how hard I went in 2011. I feel like. Oh, yeah, yeah,
[00:20:28]Randall Jacobs (host): I had, I hadalready retired by that
[00:20:30]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah,
[00:20:30]Randall Jacobs (host): I was like,okay, I've got way too much student loan debt to be living outta mycar, you know, spending money to be a professional athlete.
[00:20:40]Brad Bingham: yeah. So I had, um, my,my major injury, um, I tore the labrum, tore the labrum in my hip,um, which turns out was a, it was a genetic issue. Um,
[00:20:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Interesting.It's just weak in some way, or there's some sort of,
[00:20:59]Brad Bingham: of, shape of thefemur.
[00:21:01]Randall Jacobs (host): okay. Mysister did the same thing and she had had to have her shaved. Didyou have the, the shaving surgery or did you tear it rightthrough?
[00:21:08]Brad Bingham: The shaving. Yep. Same.Yep. So
[00:21:14]Randall Jacobs (host): same thing onthe other side.
[00:21:15]Brad Bingham: correct both sides.Yep. I identical. So that ended up, um, the pain was pretty bad andkind of set me back in 2012. Um, and I prepped myself for surgeryat the Steadman Clinic down in Vail, um, and had surgery in on theright leg or the right hip, uh, like February of 2013.
And then I had my left one done July of 2013. So 2013 was kindof a throwaway year and, you know, I don't mean that entirely. Itwas, it was a great year. But, um,
[00:21:58]Randall Jacobs (host): In in terms ofcompeting at the highest level in athletics of any sort. Yeah.That, that makes sense.
[00:22:06]Brad Bingham: But then I came back, Icame back really hard 2014 and like just once I had the go aheadand I was, I had a wonderful physical therapist and I was justgetting after it hard.
And so at that time also I was working for Kent Erickson and hewas like, you know, all about it. Like, yeah, go, go do it. Go goget it while you can, kind of. And uh,
[00:22:33]Randall Jacobs (host): not somethingyou do in your forties unless you're, uh, or fifties. Unless you'rewhat? Tinker or, um, uh, Ned. Ned
[00:22:42]Brad Bingham: I went like, so 2014 Ikind of got myself back in, back in race shape and did things likeBreck Epic, um, if you're familiar with that.
[00:22:54]Randall Jacobs (host): I am, I gotsome friends who are doing it this year. I hear it'sphenomenal.
[00:22:57]Brad Bingham: And uh, yeah, did abouta bunch of mountain biking and then I kept ramping it up untilabout, uh, 2017. So, yeah, it went pretty hard. 'cause my wife was,was racing cross country as well.
And so it was something we did together, you know, and I wouldthrow in road races and then, and, and whatever.
[00:23:20]Randall Jacobs (host): I was gonnasay that that makes a lot of sense that, uh, it was something youshared because otherwise, I mean, you're, you're on the road allthe time and it's really hard to be on the road with like, as a, asa partner, be on the road with your partner who's out racing allthe time and, you know,
[00:23:39]Brad Bingham: yeah,
[00:23:40]Randall Jacobs (host): camping atdifferent places or, you know, subletting or, or doing whatever ittakes, you know, sleeping on sofas, wherever.
[00:23:47]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. And, uh,like, so 2016, I turned 40 in the fall, so my goal was to do 40races before I turned 40 that year.
[00:24:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Geez,
[00:24:03]Brad Bingham: So
[00:24:03]Randall Jacobs (host): that's, uh,that's impressive. I just turned 40 and I, I don't have a, I don'tthink I have a single race in me right now.
[00:24:10]Brad Bingham: Yeah, that's alright.That's alright.
[00:24:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:24:15]Brad Bingham: So, yeah. Anyways. Um,but all the way back to the Airstream. Yeah.
[00:24:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:24:21]Brad Bingham: Fun project, you know,kind of kept me occupied. Um, as I le after I had left Moots. It,uh, definitely kept me occupied for a good few months
[00:24:33]Randall Jacobs (host): And did youtow that around, um, with your wife, train, you know, training andracing everywhere, or, or were we, you just living in it?
[00:24:40]Brad Bingham: it was a project. Likeit took a, took a long time to get it even to where it is today,which is, I'd call it, I'd call it 90% done. I mean, it's, it's oneof those things
[00:24:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay, good.Good enough where your motivation is, uh, less than.
[00:24:58]Brad Bingham: Yes, it's
[00:24:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.Yeah.
[00:25:00]Brad Bingham: Yes. And, but I.
[00:25:03]Randall Jacobs (host): I think, Ithink that's part of the danger, the dangerous spot that I'm in.'cause I, I also am like comfortable enough and I got otherpriorities, but gotta keep things moving along.
[00:25:12]Brad Bingham: yeah.
[00:25:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:25:15]Brad Bingham: So, yeah. But, uh,anyway, I didn't have any, I didn't have any plans to start, youknow, to, I had no plans to be building bikes after I left Moots. Ijust wasn't, I just was like, I'm okay with taking some time andfiguring out whatever the heck happens. And, uh, and then KenErickson, who had left Moots, uh, in 2005, he, he had been doinghis thing for a while and he reached out and said, Hey, how about,how about you come back to me? And, uh, with the intention that youtake over the business? So,
[00:25:53]Randall Jacobs (host): All right.
[00:25:55]Brad Bingham: so
[00:25:55]Randall Jacobs (host): Wait, so thisis, this is his independent business?
[00:25:59]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yeah, hestarted Kent Erickson cycles about a year, a about a year, year anda half after he left Moots, so 2006. So, um, he'd been going forabout yeah. Six, seven years.
[00:26:16]Randall Jacobs (host): And is he afew years your senior?
[00:26:19]Brad Bingham: Uh, yeah.
[00:26:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So, sohe is, he's been at it, he's been at a long time.
[00:26:26]Brad Bingham: Oh,
[00:26:26]Randall Jacobs (host): And when didthe, how long did you work together before he started to kind oftransition outta the business?
[00:26:33]Brad Bingham: Uh, so from, itwould've been late, late 2012, um, until the late 2016. So fouryears that, uh, till we bought the business. And then, and then hewas on board working for about 18 months afterwards.
[00:26:53]Randall Jacobs (host): wow.
[00:26:54]Brad Bingham: five and a half years.Yeah.
[00:26:55]Randall Jacobs (host): That's reallycool. That's like quite, quite narc to have worked together in adifferent business. Have him leave and then have you kind of takeon his thing and have him supporting you in that role. Uh, thatsounds really beautiful.
[00:27:07]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. He and I,we have a, like, we have a good relationship. I don't spend verymuch time with him because he does tend to kind of hermit himselfup on, on his property and he just, you know, he's, he has abeautiful piece of property up in the mountains and it's like, youknow, his slice of heaven, like he doesn't need to go anywhere.
Um, but to see him some pretty much gotta go up there.
[00:27:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.
[00:27:35]Brad Bingham: um, but yeah, but ourworking relationship is super good. Like really loved. The time weworked together is very much a lot of back and forth and a lot ofmutual respect. And, um, neither of us really got upset with like,criticisms, you know? I mean, we were just really open. So it wasnice.
[00:28:00]Randall Jacobs (host): And you, yousaid, um, we bought the business and I, I know that I, I spoketogether with my colleague, Sam, with your wife, um, initiallybefore chatting with you. So, uh, you know, share a bit about,about her and, and how the two of you work together and so on.
[00:28:17]Brad Bingham: sure. And actually, Imean, I, I, I kind of misspoke because technically it's only myselfthat owns the business,
[00:28:26]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:28:26]Brad Bingham: but we were togetherare together, um, in everything that we do there. So, um, it feelslike, you know, it feels like we bought it.
[00:28:38]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, yeah,yeah.
[00:28:39]Brad Bingham: but yeah, so, um, soyeah, Hannah and I have been, uh, been together since 2010, likelate 2010.
And, um, you know, just a, just a fun like athletic. You know,athletic based relationship because we, you know, she was a runnerat the time we met, and I was kind of ki I was kind of like stillenjoying some running, like I did my first mar marathon with herand, um, my first and only wait, I should, I should had that,um,
[00:29:17]Randall Jacobs (host): that's more,that's more than many cyclists. Many cyclists will do. Mostcyclists, I don't even know. Uh, a lot of cyclists I know will jokethat they don't know how to run. So doing a single marathon is, isnot bad.
[00:29:30]Brad Bingham: So, so yeah, we hadnever, we had actually, you know, we'd never worked together. Butwith this idea of me taking over the business, um, I really wantedsomebody there that I, that I could trust to run the books. I knewthat that would take such a burden off of me.
[00:29:51]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:29:52]Brad Bingham: um, so we, we agreedthat, um, that that's how we would do it, and it's worked outreally well.
Um, and yeah, yeah, she, she has a, she had been working in someother outdoor, um, some other outdoor companies that are located inSteamboat Springs. Um, she'd been doing bookkeeping and accountingfor those companies, so she was, well, well versed and ready totake it on. Um, and
[00:30:23]Randall Jacobs (host): And, uh,
[00:30:24]Brad Bingham: mm-hmm.
[00:30:25]Randall Jacobs (host): oh, goahead.
[00:30:26]Brad Bingham: Oh, and she also, like,she, you know, makes the website happen, makes the web storehappen, keeps all the backend stuff going.
So
[00:30:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:30:36]Brad Bingham: you know, it's a, it'sa huge component to the business. Um, I'm sure
[00:30:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah.
[00:30:41]Brad Bingham: as you know, um, itreally allows me to draw some, to draw some lines of things that Iwork on and things that I don't work on.
[00:30:51]Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, it's,it's exhausting Otherwise, uh, you know, especially like early dayswhen, when, if it's, if it's just one person or just two people andeveryone's doing everything, uh, I mean, I, it works for somepeople, but it definitely constrained scale. And it also means thatthere's a lot of context switching from, you know, now I wannafocus on products, but you know, now I have to do a whole bunch ofcustomer service emails and then, you know, I need to do some, somemarketing outreach and, oh, you know, uh, have we paid that billyet?
[00:31:24]Brad Bingham: Yep. Yep.
[00:31:25]Randall Jacobs (host): Uh,
[00:31:26]Brad Bingham: But, but, but we'retiny, you know, we're a tiny little operation, so
[00:31:31]Randall Jacobs (host): it, it's thetwo of you.
[00:31:33]Brad Bingham: it's the two of us andone employee.
[00:31:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[00:31:37]Brad Bingham: Yep.
[00:31:37]Randall Jacobs (host): And, and whatis your, uh, what's your other team member doing?
[00:31:41]Brad Bingham: So Ed, ed is our, ourthird man, and, uh, he's like, does all of the final, finalassemblies. So, uh, you know, complete, complete build outs. Um, heis, uh, he's a veteran of the bike world. Uh, he used to own one ofthe bike shops here in downtown Steamboat. Uh, he's a certifiedmotorcycle mechanic. Uh, um, so he's just, he's just awesome,super, super diverse.
So he builds, he builds all of my wheels, like I said, does thefinal assemblies. He kind of manages the, the web orders and shipsproduct based on those incoming web orders. Um, and then, and thenhe's also in production. So he's, uh, does all the finish work onthe frames. Uh, that's like bead blasting and polishing, you know,brushing what everything that kind of takes place after I weldit,
[00:32:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:32:47]Brad Bingham: you will.
Um, and then
[00:32:49]Randall Jacobs (host): so you'redoing the tube selection, mitering and all the upstream up there,is that right?
[00:32:55]Brad Bingham: correct. Yeah.
[00:32:56]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:32:57]Brad Bingham: Yep. And then he has,oh yeah, yeah, exactly. So he has some, uh, you know, somemachining, some other machining roles as well. But those are like,it's, it's really funny just how they fall into the productionprocess. 'cause like he, like I, it's like we always needsomething.
There's always something to be done,
[00:33:24]Randall Jacobs (host): So what's the,what's the process like? Like say, you know, one of our listeners,um, was looking to get a custom bike, uh, built with you. How doesthat, how does the communication work? How's, what's the, theprocess you take them through?
[00:33:37]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So typically theyreach out, excuse me. Typically they reach out through the, thewebsite and then the conversation starts. Um, we have a prettybasic. Kind of intake form, if you will, uh, fit form. And we startwith that. Uh, that does have a lot of, uh, a lot of measurementsthat they can provide, uh, if I were to be creating the fit basedon those measurements.
But what I am seeing more and more is that clients are comingwith a fit, you know, most often a retool fit,
[00:34:14]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep. Same.
[00:34:15]Brad Bingham: totally dialed. Yep.And so then the, depending on our workload, uh, you know, sometimeswe have to delay, um, the conversation because I've just got toomany clients currently that I'm working with,
[00:34:33]Randall Jacobs (host): It's a good,good problem to have.
[00:34:35]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. Generallyit's a good problem. Yeah. So, um, but we start the conversation,you know, again, every, every client is a little bit different.Nothing. No scenario is exactly the same, but, um, most often wecreate a, create an estimate for the build out that they're lookingfor. Um, you know, if, if it's a complete build, of course theywanna see what that's gonna look like.
Um, so we provide, we provide estimates, uh, with no, um, youknow, with no deposit, no, no obligation to purchase. Um, we wantthem to see, you know, where, how they're spending their money. Um,once they're satisfied that like the pro that things look good, um,then we take a deposit and then we really dive into the designwork. Um, try to avoid putting in a lot of front end design workwith no, um, you know, with no obligation. I.
[00:35:41]Randall Jacobs (host): Sure. And Imean, you can get, you can go pretty far in kind of teasing outhigh level, a high level understanding of what the rider needs. Andalso I. They can get a real sense of whether, you know, whetherit's going to be the right match for them, you know, with thoseinitial conversations. So that totally makes sense.
And then when you are, when you are looking at like, okay, sowhat are the different, walk us through like the differentparameters of frame design for a particular rider. What, what arethe, the different levers that you can pull? And then whatinformation are you teasing out from the rider, either through thatfit info or those conversations to, to determine, you know, howthat bike gets created?
[00:36:20]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So I mean, youwanna, you wanna get kind of deep
[00:36:24]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah. Let'sgo, let's go. Full nerd. Uh, so I, I think I shared with youpreviously, like I had, you know, did a two episode, uh,conversation with Craig Calie that was got into boron infused resinand like, you know, I think Josh Porter and I were talking about.The creation of CAD tools for modeling a spinning wheel.
Uh, so we, we can go as, we can go as nerdy as we like. So yeah,give give us, give us the full nerd version.
[00:36:52]Brad Bingham: Well, since we're onthe gravel ride, um, you know, let's talk or let's talk a littlebit around a gravel bike. Um, but when there's, you know, so forexample, a lot of my clients do tend to be like, you know, their,their experience riders of a certain age, let's say. So a lot ofthose fits, you know, they, they are changing.
Um, so, you know, you really want to look at all of theparameters and, you know, weight bias, rear wheel, front wheel is abiggie. Uh, so you kinda identify that pretty, pretty quickly. Youknow, you can adjust that of course, by front center and stemlength. I. Um, to achieve a weight bias that you're, that you'rehappy with.
But, you know, generally speaking, um, you want to, um, withthose more upright positions, you know, you want to have increasedtrail, you want to have a longer front center. Um, you want, youknow, if you're, because if you're gonna, if you're gonna have ashort stem, you want higher trail.
[00:38:10]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, becauseyou're effectively without all else equal on the trail side, you'respeeding up the, the ratio of, of, uh, you know, less input for thesame amount of output when you go with a shorter stem. Lessstability. Yeah.
[00:38:26]Brad Bingham: Yeah. And, and thendepending on, you know, what, what you've done with the, likechainstay length and the rear wheel weight bias, you know, that.Quickly lightens the front end. Um, so you got, you need to be,yeah, you need to be careful there. Um, so yeah, and it's likeevery rider is different.
If you're more aggressive and, you know, racy on the gravelbike, then yeah, you might be looking for a, um, you know, for alonger stem, more weight on the front contact, front contact patch,um,
[00:39:08]Randall Jacobs (host): Potentiallyless, less frontal area in a, in a more kind of, you know,locomotive type position for long flats and things like that aswell.
[00:39:18]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:39:20]Brad Bingham: Absolutely. Um, youknow, a lot of those things, a lot of those changes do end up beingperception and not, not all that much reality. The, the frontalarea. Yeah, it's huge,
[00:39:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:39:38]Brad Bingham: But wheel base doesn't,you know, if a shorter wheel base is gonna be perceived as quick,oh, this is fast, right?
But no, it's not, you're not going any faster because
[00:39:55]Randall Jacobs (host): Sure. Yeah.It's the, the sensation of speed and, and responsiveness, which,you know, another, the flip side of the same coin is twitchiness,right? Whether it's responsive or twitchy is depends on who you areand whether you've crossed the line from one to the other.
[00:40:11]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. So, but inthe custom world, you know, in the custom world it's nice 'causeyou have all of the levers to pull. You can do, you can do anythingwith it, which is, which is wonderful. Um, because I do see a lotof pretty odd or out of the norm cockpits and, and you really wantto give them an experience.
You wanna create a bike underneath them that just feels right.Like, wow, this, this is comfortable. I mean, it's, you know, alonger wheel base on a gravel bike is really much more comfortable,uh, for the long haul. If you, you know, especially if you're anolder rider, um, those, you know, the frequency of, of bumps, youknow, washboards, you can, you can change that drastically, uh,with a slightly longer wheel base.
[00:41:05]Randall Jacobs (host): Tell me moreabout that. How does that actually work?
[00:41:07]Brad Bingham: Well, because you havethe slacker head angle, which
[00:41:11]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:41:12]Brad Bingham: inherently allows thefork to flex a little more.
[00:41:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[00:41:18]Brad Bingham: Right? And then, andthen the, the longer wheel base, you know, um, just geometricallyit, it doesn't have to, the, the angle of change. Is lessened
[00:41:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay,
[00:41:34]Brad Bingham: as you go over, as yougo over a rise or through a pothole, that that angle of change is,is lessened on a longer wheel base.
[00:41:43]Randall Jacobs (host): It hadn'toccurred to me that, so you're saying like a degree of head tubeangle change, all else equal, same fork, same tubes, and everythingelse will actually
[00:41:53]Brad Bingham: you'll feel that. Yeah.You'll feel that flex. Uh, that definitely.
[00:42:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Got it. 'causeI, I was thinking of it purely in terms of its effect on trail orlike the caster effect to, to simplify it for those who don't knowtrail and um, uh, and you know, potentially the introduction oftire flop, which usually is in an issue on, you know, gravel bikes.'cause the head tubes aren't slack enough. Yeah. Huh?
[00:42:22]Brad Bingham: yeah, there, there'sthat. There's also, you know, again, back to like slightly longerwheel base. Shorter stem. Shorter. I think there is some, somealso, um, comfort gained by, um, how much weight is on the hands,what you feel through the, what you feel through the front. Butthat's really driven by the overall cockpit and the, the fitparameters, you know,
[00:42:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:42:50]Brad Bingham: so, but
[00:42:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Basicallywhere that, those three points in space where the, uh, the angle ofthe hypotenuse between them.
[00:42:58]Brad Bingham: Yep. Yep.
[00:43:00]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:43:00]Brad Bingham: So, so, yeah. You know,they, it's pretty quick, uh, pretty quick to tell the difference inhow, how smooth bikes are, um, with those pretty, pretty smalldimensional changes. Um, but it's even, it's been difficult for meeven in design where I go, oh wow. I don't, wow. I don't wannachange the front center by, by that much.
Like, oh, that's, That's 20 millimeters and then you have toremember, wait, it's 20 millimeters. It's nothing like,
[00:43:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, as a, asa percentage, if you're dealing with a bike that has a wheel base,use a round number of like a thousand, usually a large gravel bikecould be a bit longer than that.
[00:43:44]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:43:44]Randall Jacobs (host): You know, 20millimeters, so 2%.
[00:43:48]Brad Bingham: Right.
[00:43:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:43:50]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. Butit's
[00:43:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Though, interms of, in terms of mass distribution over the two axles, it'sgonna be bigger than that because it's relative to its distance tothe the bottom bracket.
So the rear end is staying unless you change the rear end withit as well.
[00:44:04]Brad Bingham: sure, sure. And I, Ithink, I think oftentimes it is smart to adjust that rear center ina accordingly, um, because otherwise you will end up with, um, toomuch rear weight bias, you know,
[00:44:19]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:44:20]Brad Bingham: so.
[00:44:20]Randall Jacobs (host): Which, whichcan be, which can be fun if you like wheelies and for a certaintype of riding,
[00:44:25]Brad Bingham: Exactly. Absolutely.Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, the bike, I'm like, the bike I'm ridingright now is, uh, I think it's about a four, I think it's like a 427, uh, chain state. That's center to center. Not effect, not uh,horizontal, but
[00:44:44]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep.
[00:44:45]Brad Bingham: center to center. It'slike a, like a 4
[00:44:48]Randall Jacobs (host): So horizontal,it's gonna be, you know, for 23 it's a pretty tight,
[00:44:53]Brad Bingham: Yeah, it's pretty.
[00:44:53]Randall Jacobs (host): uh, actually,no, not that much, but yeah, 4 24 or something like that.
[00:44:57]Brad Bingham: Yeah, actually I thinkit is less, um, because the drop is probably, I think the drop onmy rig is like at least 73, 75 maybe I forget now. Um, but that's apretty tight, tight rear. And then the front is like a, I thinkthe, my current ride is like a 71.7 head angle with a 47 fork, youknow,
[00:45:20]Randall Jacobs (host): How tall areyou?
[00:45:21]Brad Bingham: uh, probably five, 10,maybe a sh
[00:45:25]Randall Jacobs (host): 10.
[00:45:26]Brad Bingham: yeah.
[00:45:26]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay. So on alarger, medium, smaller, large, sort of, if you were to fall intoa, a conventional bike?
[00:45:34]Brad Bingham: Yeah,
[00:45:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:45:37]Brad Bingham: And uh,
[00:45:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Just, just forcontext. 'cause then, 'cause then, you know, understanding like a,you know, an extra large rider is gonna be riding, uh, even if youscale that bike up, well you, you can't really, because the wheelsdon't scale.
[00:45:49]Brad Bingham: right,
[00:45:49]Randall Jacobs (host): so you have toadjust those, those angles and those lengths and stuff like that.Not just proportional, but also to account for the fact that thewheels are staying, uh, which, which I always thought was aninteresting opportunity. Uh, you do see some brands that, um, uh,will, you know, restrict to like a six 50 B on their smallestsizes, for example.
Uh,
[00:46:09]Brad Bingham: You do see that a lot.Yeah.
[00:46:12]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. I, I, Ithink we should bring back 26 for those really small riders whowanna run two point fours, but I guess there's not enough of amarket or a marketing, uh, uh, you know, edge to be gained from it,so.
[00:46:25]Brad Bingham: Yeah. I, I, I findthat, uh, my more like, my more experienced clients that are, thatare very small, they're, they're really looking for 700.
[00:46:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:46:38]Brad Bingham: they're, they, they
[00:46:39]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, it'sinteresting. Same. And how much of that is, what do you think arethe drivers of that? Is that, do you think it's actually better forthe vast majority of those riders, or,
[00:46:52]Brad Bingham: I think that the, the,again, kind of back to that going, you know, actually going fastcomfortably, like comfortably going fast, you're going to do thatbetter on a 700 than on a six
[00:47:07]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, justrolling resistance attack angle, things like
[00:47:11]Brad Bingham: Yes. Yes, exactly.
[00:47:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So,
[00:47:15]Brad Bingham: and we.
[00:47:16]Randall Jacobs (host): so worth thecom worth the compromises on, maybe responsiveness or, or what haveyou. 'cause you're definitely giving up something there, even ifyou do proportional cranks.
[00:47:24]Brad Bingham: for sure. Yeah. But I,I think like there's, you know, you know how it is, there's a, the,the sharp end of a peloton they want, or, or the entire Peloton,they want responsiveness.
[00:47:37]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.Yeah.
[00:47:38]Brad Bingham: but you know, for
[00:47:40]Randall Jacobs (host): how do you doit on those really small frames? Like, you know, you have a, a fivefoot ri, five foot tall rider come in and they want to do gravelracing. Four foot 10. Yeah. Four foot 10. I mean, there's, it'sunfortunate, um, there's almost nothing out there off the shelf fora rider who's four foot 10 and they end up on these bikes with nostandover and a 40 mil stem, and they're still not fitproperly.
[00:48:03]Brad Bingham: yeah. So I, I takeadvantage of, so seven cycles,
[00:48:09]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep.
[00:48:09]Brad Bingham: been producing,producing a fork called the the matador.
[00:48:14]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah.
[00:48:14]Brad Bingham: for quite a while. Ithas a 55 millimeter offset.
[00:48:18]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:48:19]Brad Bingham: So you can get, you canget pretty slack with the front end and still keep it, um, youknow, on the low, low lowish side of trail. Um,
[00:48:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And for,for those who don't know, um, when you increase the offset, youdecrease the trail all l sql. And when you de, when you increasethe head angle, you um, decrease the trail as well. You essentiallyless trail, less castor effect all else equal, more, moreresponsive or more twitchy, depending on whether you've crossedover into, you know, if you went too far, it wouldn't, you wouldn'tbe able to handle the bike over much.
[00:48:58]Brad Bingham: Right.
[00:48:59]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:49:00]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So those, youknow, and tow overlap is a real, is a real thing. And when youstart talking about a bike that's gonna clear a 45 millimeter tire,um, so.
[00:49:12]Randall Jacobs (host): a four 10rider. Yeah. That's, that's hard to pull out. Are you doing,really, are you finding proportional cranks too? Are you runningone fifties or one 40 fives or, or this sort of thing?
[00:49:22]Brad Bingham: Yeah. I think to date,one 50 is the smallest I've gone.
[00:49:27]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah,
[00:49:28]Brad Bingham: so, um, but thosebikes, you know, they're, yeah, they're not, they're not racing ata high level, you know, they're, they're out enjoying gravelrides.
[00:49:43]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah,
[00:49:44]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:49:45]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. Those,I'll just comment, just, uh, anecdotally the conversations I'vehad, particularly with some of our smallest riders is proportionalcrack lengths makes such a big difference. And like people are,people are just used to riding the same cranks that you and I. Youknow, ride their whole lives and they never knew anything differentor like their bike.
You know, I've, I've had riders that are five foot tall andtheir bikes came with one 70 fives. You know, they had a, they hada hybrid or something like that, or, or they're coming off ofsomething, or like an older road bike and I put 'em on one 50 fivesand it's just like, I can spin,
[00:50:20]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:50:21]Randall Jacobs (host): spin it. Highcadences.
My, my pedal stroke doesn't fall apart when I'm tired.
[00:50:25]Brad Bingham: Well also, you know,you look at bike, bike frame design and bike frame design has beendictated by what is a common crank arm length, you know, one 70 to1
[00:50:34]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Exactly.Together, together with, uh, uh, you know, the outer attire radius,which is in turn driven by the, the rim dimensions. So like six 50B or, or 26 versus 700 and so on, uh, puts different constraints.And then you have BB drop. If you have smaller wheels, you can'thave as much BB drop, which means you're kind of more on top of thebike.
And so you have all these different factors that impact eachother that you're balancing.
[00:51:03]Brad Bingham: yeah. And I'm, I'd sayoverall, my, my design philosophy is you have, uh, the, kind of thelowest. Possible center of gravity. Um, so maintaining, uh, youknow, a low, low bottom bracket, um, whatever is acceptable forlike, you know, wheel base crank, arm length, intended pedal, allthose things.
[00:51:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah,essentially is, is, I mean, there's really not much reason not togo as low as you can go without risking pedal strikes
[00:51:36]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:51:37]Randall Jacobs (host): more or lessany application. And it's just a matter of what the applicationdemands. Like a road bike that's doing crit racing, it's gonna needto hire bb 'cause you wanna be able to pedal out of the corner assoon as possible.
Um, dual suspension, mountain bike, you know, same deal. Butit's, it's, uh, you need to hire BB because you have all thatsquish.
[00:51:56]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. Cycl,lacrosse, bikes, you know, side hill, side hilling, and
[00:52:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. So it'sinteresting, you know, as gravel has, has taken over, um, cross androad. Arguably you ha like a lot of people who previously mighthave had a road bike now might only have a gravel bike that theyuse for road two. Uh, but like cross cross bikes have seemed tokind of converge with gravel bikes.
You don't see a lot of high BB cross bikes, at least to myknowledge, on the production side anymore.
[00:52:26]Brad Bingham: Correct. I think that'sbeen a, I think that's been driven by how people are actually usingthe bikes.
[00:52:33]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.Yeah.
[00:52:34]Brad Bingham: Exactly. Yeah.Yeah.
[00:52:36]Randall Jacobs (host): right. Sowe've, we've, we've gone pretty deep on geometry. How about, uh,tubes?
[00:52:41]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. So in, inmy
[00:52:44]Randall Jacobs (host): the levers youcan pull?
[00:52:45]Brad Bingham: in my world, you know,I work with titanium exclusively, and everything that I havein-house is straight gauge tubing. Um, the
[00:52:58]Randall Jacobs (host): Is this allpre preformed as tubes or are you buying any flat sheets androlling and, and welding them?
[00:53:04]Brad Bingham: no, no, the, uh, no,nothing like,
[00:53:07]Randall Jacobs (host): like the sixfour stuff.
[00:53:09]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, Ihave visited some of those factories that, that perform thatfunction. Um, but it's just not, yeah, in my opinion, it's, it'sbarking up the wrong tree. Um, the tubing that I get, the vastmajority of it is from Washington State, from Sandvik, which isactually, they just recently were kind of rebranded to theirSwedish parent company name, which is Aima.
So it's,
[00:53:42]Randall Jacobs (host): Interesting.Sandik makes, um, the wire that's used in spokes as well.
[00:53:46]Brad Bingham: uh, I believe it.
[00:53:49]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, so likewe, we use Pillar Spokes and they use Sandvik. I think SENE does aswell, and it makes sense, right? These are high grade, um, highperformance, uh, alloys.
[00:53:59]Brad Bingham: Yeah.
[00:54:00]Randall Jacobs (host): Huh, I didn'tknow that.
[00:54:01]Brad Bingham: there's, there's onlytwo, two places in the United States that produces titanium tubing.And that's, uh, Alma in Washington State and Hayes inLouisiana,
[00:54:13]Randall Jacobs (host): And that'sactually produced. So they're, they're getting the raw materialfrom somewhere and they're forming it into tubes here, forming itinto alloys here, or alloying it, and then forming it here.
[00:54:25]Brad Bingham: Yeah. The, the, whatthey refer to as Tube Hollow, that is kind of the last step of theprocess before it actually becomes a tube that, that Tube Hollow isall sorted out. Like the alloy is correct, the condition iscorrect, and then they manufacture the tube from that. Um, and thenat that, from that point forward, you know, all they can, all theycan do to it is, uh, alter the condition through a kneeling and,and working
[00:54:58]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.Okay.
[00:54:59]Brad Bingham: So I get most, the vastmajority of my tubes come from Washington State.
And those come in, uh, typically in like 17 foot lengths. Um,yeah.
[00:55:13]Randall Jacobs (host): So you have adedicated truck coming to you, you're buying
[00:55:16]Brad Bingham: Oh yeah.
[00:55:17]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. To movethat sort of thing. You're not, you're not doing less than, lessthan container load. You're doing like a a box trucker orsomething?
[00:55:24]Brad Bingham: yeah. I mean, itusually comes by freight. It's, uh, and then you have, you know,minimum footage requirements, um, per purchase. So, and, and that'sminimum footage, requirement per diameter, per wall thickness.
[00:55:40]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[00:55:40]Brad Bingham: So you have to buy, youknow, um, it ends up being thousands of feet of material to haveenough material selection on hand that you feel good about the, thetubing you can offer.
[00:55:56]Randall Jacobs (host): So you'rebuying, and this is just, you're sourcing just for yourself. You'renot consolidating with other builders.
[00:56:01]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yeah. Nobodyelse.
[00:56:04]Randall Jacobs (host): That's a,yeah, that's a big commitment of, uh, of capital.
[00:56:08]Brad Bingham: It is, it's very, verylarge. Um,
[00:56:11]Randall Jacobs (host): So I wouldimagine like you basically spend a whole bunch of money early inthe season and, well, I, no, I guess you're, you're probably ableto kind of keep your demand consistent over the years.
So you probably do a couple buys a year or something like
[00:56:23]Brad Bingham: yeah. You end up buyingenough material that you're gonna be, you, you'll have thatmaterial for literally years, you know, all, so,
[00:56:33]Randall Jacobs (host): I would thinkespecially some of the more esoteric SKUs with high, high, um, uh,minimum order quantities.
[00:56:39]Brad Bingham: correct.
[00:56:40]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:56:41]Brad Bingham: Yeah. But it's okay.Like, yeah. That's, that's the, that is the titanium world, becauseif, if you want the highest quality American made tubing, thenthat's, that's what it takes, period.
[00:56:54]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah,
[00:56:54]Brad Bingham: There's other way toget it.
[00:56:56]Randall Jacobs (host): And then whatis, what are other people doing? Are they working throughdistributors and just hot paying? I'm, I'm curious about the, thebusiness side of it as well. Like, are there, so, so here in theHudson Valley where I am, we have, uh, vicious cycles and, uh, Um,Carl. Yeah, so Kyle's, I was out on a ride with him the otherday.
He'll, he'll be at Made as well. I know you'll be at Made too.Um, but he's, he, his other, the other side of his business, Iforget the name of it, is the, I think the biggest distributor ofsteel tubes or one of the biggest distributors of steel tubes. Andso you can do small batch, you can order as you go, but presumablypay, pay a premium.
But does that sort of thing exist in Ty? Must exist in titaniumas well?
[00:57:37]Brad Bingham: It
[00:57:38]Randall Jacobs (host): Not asmuch,
[00:57:39]Brad Bingham: not, not in the, not inthe same way. Um, you can certainly purchase, uh, tube sets likefrom, uh, data chi, uh, Columbus. Uh, but those are all, you know,Reynolds, um, aura Titanium, but those are all overseas. Third
[00:58:02]Randall Jacobs (host): Or is Taiwanright?
[00:58:04]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Aus, Taiwan.
[00:58:05]Randall Jacobs (host): to their,yeah, I've been to their factory.
[00:58:08]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. I've gotsome, I have some dropouts coming from them to, to check out.
Um, hopefully they're here like today or tomorrow. Um, but, uh,but titanium is, uh, titanium is just such a difficult material tocreate. There's, there's, you know, not a lot of players, um, inthat world. And it's expensive, you
[00:58:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[00:58:36]Brad Bingham: so that, yeah, to putthat outlay of capital to create tube sets for distribution, likethat's being taken on by those larger companies like Columbus, dataChi and such.
[00:58:52]Randall Jacobs (host): It reminds me,uh, I'm gonna go off on a, a tangent here. Um, you ever hear aboutthe, the Black Hawk, um, uh, spy plane? Think could do like mock3.4
[00:59:04]Brad Bingham: yeah, they
[00:59:05]Randall Jacobs (host): it was,
[00:59:05]Brad Bingham: kerosene coffin.
[00:59:08]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, it usedto leak it. The, the temperatures when you're going Mach three plusare so high because you're essentially compressing the air ahead ofyou and creating that massive shock wave.
But also you just, you know, compressing all that heat energyand then there's, it's impossible to dissipate it faster that they,and the expansion in the titanium would be such that they built itso that it was leaking when it took off, and then all the gapswould seal up when you're actually up in the air.
And then they'd have to do air to air refueling,
[00:59:38]Brad Bingham: I'm kind of a, I'm kindof an SSR 71 Blackbird, um, nerd.
[00:59:43]Randall Jacobs (host): Nerd. Allright. So then, so then you know about how, um, uh, the, thetitanium was sourced
[00:59:51]Brad Bingham: Oh, well, no, I,maybe
[00:59:54]Randall Jacobs (host): from, from theU S S R through, through like intermediaries. So a us, uh, us youknow, Soviet Union. So a US spy plane built to spy on the SovietUnion in, I think, you know, that plane was, uh, launched what inthe, in the seventies?
[01:00:12]Brad Bingham: The, the Blackbird,
[01:00:13]Randall Jacobs (host): was it? Yeah.Was it even earlier?
[01:00:15]Brad Bingham: it was earlier. It wasdeveloped in the fifties and into the si and into
[01:00:19]Randall Jacobs (host): then decommitmaybe, then maybe decommissioned in the seventies
[01:00:23]Brad Bingham: Well, it was top secretuntil I forget. I don't know. I forget the date, but, yeah.
[01:00:29]Randall Jacobs (host): until, uh,yeah, that I, I always found that interesting that, uh, it's likebuy, buying this material that it, but it, it does speak to thefact, not just of Cold War tensions, but also of, you know, even a,a power as seemingly mighty as the US had to source this particularmaterial from an adversary, um, because of what you're speaking to,the difficulty of producing it.
Um, Then you get into like the, the properties of this material,which, you know, were essential to being able to create that craftat the time in the first place. But, you know, that craft requiredmajor compromises and usability that made it, you know, dangerousand expensive to, to build and operate. Uh, you know, sitting in apool of kerosene on a runway is, uh, I guess does it lighteasily?
I don't think it lights all that easily, but, um,
[01:01:24]Brad Bingham: No, no. They just,
[01:01:25]Randall Jacobs (host): still not agood thing.
[01:01:26]Brad Bingham: they just said that it,that's what they called it. Um, just because you could smell the,the fuel, you know. Um, but yeah, but the, the SR 71 is a, uh, wasa development project, you know, uh, that we can thank for so muchof the, the titanium that we use today and, and a lot of themanufacturing, you know, the manufacturing processes that were usedin the nineties, you know, to make, um, to, you know, MerlinLights, lights, speed, all those brands.
Um, yeah. Have you ever been up close to an sr?
[01:02:07]Randall Jacobs (host): No. Where canyou, where can you do it?
[01:02:10]Brad Bingham: um, I think, well they,they tend to travel around to the different air, you know,aerospace, air and space museums. Um, I was up close with one in,uh, McMinnville, Oregon at the Evergreen Aviation Museum,
[01:02:27]Randall Jacobs (host): Huh?
[01:02:28]Brad Bingham: that was super cool.They, um, they were allowing. You just sit in it as well.
And, but then I believe there was one at the, the Pima Air SpaceMuseum in, uh, uh, Tucson.
[01:02:45]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep.
[01:02:45]Brad Bingham: So, um, yeah,
[01:02:46]Randall Jacobs (host): Right by theboneyard,
[01:02:48]Brad Bingham: correct. Yeah,
[01:02:49]Randall Jacobs (host): which is, uh,the decommissioning location. You just have, if you've ever thoselistening, if you've ever seen pictures of thousands of aircraftsitting in a desert, that's the boneyard outside of Tucson. It's aninsane place. Um,
[01:03:03]Brad Bingham: But, but at that, theone I was looking at there, when you went up to the, like the jetengine cowling, you, and you look closely, uh, you, you're lookingat these massive pieces of titanium and if you look closely, youcan see the end mill machining marks, you can see how that wasmachined and it was probably done manually.
[01:03:31]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah.Especially at that age, uh, at that, uh, that vintage.
[01:03:36]Brad Bingham: hours and hours thatprobably went into that. So pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. Coolstuff.
[01:03:42]Randall Jacobs (host): There's, um, yyou've probably come across the, there's videos on YouTube with,uh, interviewing the engineers who worked on that project inparticular, some of the, oh, um, okay. Welcome to your next rabbithole.
[01:03:54]Brad Bingham: I rarely go down theYouTube rabbit
[01:03:56]Randall Jacobs (host): This, this isa worthy one. I would say. There was, there was one, uh, there wasa couple interviews I, I watched with, uh, someone who worked onthe engines, uh, for that craft.
So an engine that's pushing, you know, 3.2, 3.4 m at, you know,again, fifties, sixties technology. Um, and one, it's cool stuff,but two, um, just the delight that, that you see in, in, you know,he's, he's still, you know, in 2023 giving tours and talking aboutthat experience of working on these
[01:04:31]Brad Bingham: Mm-hmm. Super cool.
[01:04:34]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Um,cool. All right, so we've, we've, thank you for indulging my rabbithole. Seems like we have another thing in common. Uh, uh, so, so,okay. So you have your tubes. Um,
[01:04:49]Brad Bingham: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.Yep. And then I do, I do supplement, uh, there are limitations forsure to the manufacturing capability of, of us titanium tubemakers, so,
[01:05:04]Randall Jacobs (host): what arethose
[01:05:05]Brad Bingham: that, diameter. So theyonly, they only go so large and
[01:05:14]Randall Jacobs (host): Says that'smostly, that, that's not a technology thing. That's more of a, amarketability thing, presumably,
[01:05:20]Brad Bingham: yeah.
[01:05:21]Randall Jacobs (host): not, notenough scale, or is it, or is it hard to create certain diametersat certain Well, thicknesses
[01:05:27]Brad Bingham: It is hard because itis, uh, it is the diameter to wall ratio that does get very, verydifficult in titanium. Um, but yeah, I think
[01:05:36]Randall Jacobs (host): How's it,how's it formed?
[01:05:39]Brad Bingham: so
[01:05:40]Randall Jacobs (host): outta sheetsthat are auto welded or,
[01:05:43]Brad Bingham: no, no, it's aseamless, seamless, drawn tube from, from what's referred to as atube hollow. And
[01:05:53]Randall Jacobs (host): this likePlay-doh fun factory sort of forming process?
[01:05:56]Brad Bingham: like, uh, like drawnover a mandrel.
[01:06:00]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[01:06:01]Brad Bingham: Yeah. And, andbasically beaten, beaten into submission. Um, so, uh, so yeah, sothey can only produce up to a certain size, you know, certain wallthickness, um, there, so there's a lot of large diameter down tubesthat are being used these days.
I'm definitely, I'm definitely on board with that. So I willpick those up from Titanium Joe out of the northeast there.
[01:06:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[01:06:29]Brad Bingham: uh, New York andOntario, uh, he's got a, you know, warehousing. Um, so I'll gothere for like a one in three quarter diameter down tube. Um, I dosome two inch diameter down tubes for tandems.
I'll even do like a two and a quarter outside diameter, uh, likeboom, boom tube and down tube.
[01:06:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Yep.
[01:06:53]Brad Bingham: so, yeah. And thoseare, those are typically a Chinese sourced tube. Um, but they're,they're pretty damn good. They've, they've proven themselves to bepretty good over time.
[01:07:07]Randall Jacobs (host): And this is,uh, you know, torsional, stiffness, bottom bracket, stiffness,things like this. Heavier riders, riders who want more, you know,um, responsiveness on acceleration, things like that.
[01:07:19]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Also, you know,stiffness is what's going to eliminate any kind of like harmonicbalance where get any kind of like speed, speed wobble, if youwill. You know, there's two, two major fact, well there's morethan, there's like three major factors. Uh, frame stiffness, juststraight
[01:07:39]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.Mm-hmm.
[01:07:41]Brad Bingham: period.
And, you know, titanium 25 years ago had a pretty bad wrap ofbeing newly, right? So yeah, you can, you can certainly eliminatethat by going to a, a large, larger diameter down to, um, it's kindof, you know, beefing everything up a bit. But, you know, luckilywe've seen all these advances in frame design, larger head tubes,you know, stiffer steerer tubes.
That all adds, you know, the fork is a. Important component whenit comes to stiffness of the entire assembly.
[01:08:17]Randall Jacobs (host): So Monocoquemonocoque, carbon for construction. Yep.
[01:08:23]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. And alsothe stiffer suspension forks as well, um, have made things muchbetter. Um, but then, you know, and then secondly, uh, alignment,alignment of the bicycle is huge. Uh, 'cause that, that's what can,you know, set off the, you know, people, you rarely hear builderstalk about alignment. And it's
[01:08:45]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah,
[01:08:46]Brad Bingham: I mean, alignment is atthe top of the list. That's number one if
[01:08:50]Randall Jacobs (host): I think it'staken for granted too on the other, on the other side it's like,oh, these, these, this is, this is my geometry. But then again,when we talk about geometry, we're not talking about tolerances andnone of those numbers. Um, if we're not talking about tolerances,we're certainly not talking about tolerances of like the center ofthe BB relative to the center of the, the rear axle and thealignment of those two axes and things like this.
[01:09:14]Brad Bingham: Exactly, and, and, andthat's right at the top of the list. Like, oh, again, like I've hada long time, you know, 27 years of building bikes to kind of try tofigure it out and, uh, and yeah. Uh, I think honestly likealignment is at the top of the list. It's like that's what makes abike feel good, you
[01:09:36]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, andlet's talk about all the ways that can go wrong too. 'cause it'snot, it's not just the design in the, in the jigging, it's also theheat treatment. Right.
[01:09:43]Brad Bingham: Well, there's no post,there's no post welding.
[01:09:46]Randall Jacobs (host): no post withtitanium.
[01:09:48]Brad Bingham: Correct.
[01:09:49]Randall Jacobs (host): So then how,how do you end up with poor alignment? What are the things that,uh,
[01:09:54]Brad Bingham: Typically, yeah. Yeah.For poor alignment, uh, gaps. Like in, in your fit
[01:10:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Okay.
[01:10:01]Brad Bingham: you know, you'refitting a tube to dropouts, bottom bracket. Shell, you know, chainstay to bottom bracket. Shell, you know, you're, every piece of thebike, every single piece that goes together can give you a placefor poor alignment.
[01:10:21]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[01:10:21]Brad Bingham: So how the down tubefits up to the head tube.
Oh, that's, that's crummy. That's not gonna be good. Soit's,
[01:10:30]Randall Jacobs (host): this is howprecise you, you set up all of your, your machining tools whenyou're doing your mitering. Um, how precisely everything is fittedup in the jig when you're going to actually do the TIG work? Or isit TIG or MIG for titanium
[01:10:45]Brad Bingham: Tig. Tig. Yeah.Tungsten.
[01:10:47]Randall Jacobs (host): inert gas.
[01:10:49]Brad Bingham: Yeah. And so, so yeah,I would say the, the biggest issue with metal bikes in alignment issimply, you know, poor fit ups gaps. Um, maybe too much, you know,maybe too much heat through the welding process in one specificarea. Um, you know, you do get a lot of change of shape, um,especially in titanium.
That's why people, people don't love building titanium bikessometimes because it really moves around a lot.
[01:11:23]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And youcan't, you don't just throw the whole thing in an oven and bakeit.
[01:11:27]Brad Bingham: Correct,
[01:11:28]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[01:11:29]Brad Bingham: Yeah. So,
[01:11:30]Randall Jacobs (host): So that,that's two things. And the third one, what the, just the, thegeometry of the bike and particularly, you know, trail as a primarydriver
[01:11:39]Brad Bingham: um, I was gonna sayweight, weight bias as far as
[01:11:42]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh, okay.
[01:11:43]Brad Bingham: Yeah, if you're
[01:11:43]Randall Jacobs (host): Makes
[01:11:44]Brad Bingham: it, yeah. Yeah. Solike, imagine, uh, you know, somebody who's. In a really, reallyupright position, and then puts a rack on the bike and puts 50, 50pounds on the rear rack, like,
[01:11:57]Randall Jacobs (host): Oh yeah. Well,and that weight distribution too. Um, it's funny, I was just in aforum, um, telling somebody, uh, uh, who got the same cargo bikethat I did, that their, their stacked up stem assembly is gonna endup with them dead because they added like a riser stem on top of ariser stem on a folding stem assembly.
And they have their, the, the, the top one is adjust the topSTEM's adjustable, and it, and it, and he's got it pointed straightupright, and then the bars are slightly swept back. So like thegrips are like, right. You know, if you draw a line between thegrips, it would probably intersect right at the center of thesteering axis's, like nothing resisting this bike just floppingover.
Um, you know, it might be getting a bit esoteric here, but, uh,yeah, don't, if you're listening, don't do that. Um, especially ona, especially on a, a bike that's, you know, in that case youmentioned racks and things like that. Like when you have, inaddition to the rod or these other masses, Now you have a dynamicsystem where you're getting like an additional oscillation loopbecause the bike is doing its little wiggle thing and then therider's trying to compensate.
And depending on, you know, the response rate of that rider'sbrain and their ability to move their muscles in response, it couldactually create a resonance that amplifies rather than dampensthat, that speed wobble or whatever it is.
[01:13:16]Brad Bingham: Sure, sure. So,
[01:13:20]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah. Okay.Cool, cool, cool.
[01:13:22]Brad Bingham: yeah, so it all, it allcomes back to, to, yeah. Building, building stiff, you know, stiffbikes. Um, titanium is wonderful in that regard because you canbuild a stiff titanium bike that still maintains that niceresilience that, that feel of tie. Yeah,
[01:13:44]Randall Jacobs (host): And tell, tellme more about that.
[01:13:47]Brad Bingham: so,
[01:13:47]Randall Jacobs (host): how, how didthe properties of it compare to like, You know, obviously you canmake a, a, a tube heavier, thicker or whatever, and, and getcertain properties. But in a high performance bike that's lightenough that people actually wanna ride it. How does it compare tosteel?
And then on the other end, you know, carbon is, is a non, um,you know, uh, non homogenous, um, material. Like you can, you canlay it up however you want it. It's a composite. So what, you know,what are the, the differences in terms of ride characteristics andwhy? Uh, between the different materials?
[01:14:27]Brad Bingham: sure. So, so I'm not amaterials scientist. I'm not a materials engineer, so, um, I won't,I won't be able to get too deep on you here, but, um, basically,you know, titanium has a very high modulus of elasticity. So it's,it's very happy to bend, you know, which, that's why some of those,those old tie bikes and even underbuilt tie bikes, um, can bereferred to as a noodle because, because of that high modulus, youknow, it, that's what it likes to do.
Um, but in the right, you know, in the right alloys, in theright size and the, the right wall thickness, you know, everythingkind of comes together to give a really beautiful feel alongwith
[01:15:20]Randall Jacobs (host): And by sizeyou mean tube diameter?
[01:15:22]Brad Bingham: diameter. Yeah. Yeah.So, you know, as a, as a material titanium is like, compared tosteel, like steel is gonna have a, a higher tensile,
[01:15:35]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[01:15:36]Brad Bingham: right?
Um, it's gonna have a higher tensile, it's gonna be. Obviouslyquite a bit heavier. Um, but with that higher tensile, you know,you don't need as much of it. And so you can pair it down. Youknow, wall thicknesses on steel tube sets are quite a bit thinnerthan titanium tube sets, generally
[01:16:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah, thoughalso you have to kind of keep tube diameters smaller in order forweight not to get outta control, even with those thin wallthicknesses. Um, and in turn, yeah. And then in turn, you know,your, your stiffness is going up with the next, was it, um, withthe square of, uh, tube diameter?
[01:16:21]Brad Bingham: If you say so.
[01:16:24]Randall Jacobs (host): Some, some,something like that.
So,
[01:16:27]Brad Bingham: but the other,
[01:16:28]Randall Jacobs (host): I'm sure that,I'm sure that someone, uh, a mechanical engineer in the, in theaudience will chime in, uh, and, uh, correct me on that.
[01:16:34]Brad Bingham: yeah. So, you know,from, As I understand it, the, you know, steel, you can pair itdown. You can, that's why budding, budding of steel tubes is sobeneficial because that, that reduction of material does equate toa very nice reduction in overall weight, but
[01:16:54]Randall Jacobs (host): Mm-hmm.
[01:16:55]Brad Bingham: it also adds to theride quality.
Um,
[01:16:59]Randall Jacobs (host): It's kind ofmaximizing the tube diameter and minimizing the wall thicknessright up to the point where you're getting a higher risk of failuredue to, you know, it, it bending in, compression, or gettingdented.
[01:17:14]Brad Bingham: Correct. Yeah. And, andyou know, that's why, that's why I don't, I don't really prescribeto the, um, double butted tube sets for titanium
[01:17:25]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[01:17:27]Brad Bingham: um, you can, you canmaintain a thin wall. You can, you go with a larger od. Um, youknow, when you start talking about removing some of that material,all, in my opinion, all you are doing is making a bike that is muchmore, uh, vulnerable to denting and, and failure,
[01:17:52]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[01:17:53]Brad Bingham: you
[01:17:53]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And, andI'll certainly say as, as, as I, my riding changes, I'd much ratherhave those extra grams and a bike that lasts forever and won't failcatastrophically on me, um, than, you know, something that's, uh,pushed to the very edges of what material can do under the idealconditions. I e not putting it down, not leaning it againstsomething improperly, not having it, you know, fall on itself.
[01:18:19]Brad Bingham: yeah, yeah. I, Ireally, you know, my, like, I'm at the heart. You know, the reasonI, the reason I started building bikes in the first place wasbecause I had a couple of bikes break and I was like, you know,bikes, they shouldn't break like that. So, you know, I am informedby that, like that the bike should, it really should not fail. Itshould be, it should be, uh, you know, something that you put a lotof trust in. You know, you're going very fast on a bike. You'reputting yourself in in situations that if, if a failure occurs, itcan be really dangerous. So let's just go ahead
[01:19:01]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, we dohave like a, you know, a styrofoam cooler on our heads with alittle plastic shell around it. So that'll, that'll keep us safe.And we get, you know, some, uh, some adamantium armor in the formof Lycra.
[01:19:11]Brad Bingham: Yes.
[01:19:13]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah.
[01:19:14]Brad Bingham: So, so, uh, so yeah,titanium, um, especially for gravel bikes is a wonderful materialbecause it can take such a beating. Um, yeah. You know, you hearthose rocks getting thrown up by the front tire and you just, justkeep hammering.
[01:19:33]Randall Jacobs (host): And if youscratch it, you can polish it out or,
[01:19:36]Brad Bingham: can.
[01:19:37]Randall Jacobs (host): yeah.
[01:19:38]Brad Bingham: So, you know, they'renot, they're not impervious to, to, to major damage. I've seen,I've seen my fair share, but, um, overall, pretty dang, pretty,pretty robust.
[01:19:51]Randall Jacobs (host): Well, we'vecovered a lot here. Um, what, what other, what other things shouldpeople keep in mind when considering both a, a custom bikegenerally and a titanium bike specifically?
[01:20:03]Brad Bingham: Hmm. Gosh.
[01:20:05]Randall Jacobs (host): do you see asthe, the advantages and the things to look out for when, say,choosing a builder?
[01:20:10]Brad Bingham: Hmm. Wow. Kind of putme on, put me on the spot. But, uh, you know, I think you gotta go.I, I, I would definitely say that, you know, find out who thebuilder is and, you know, if you really jive with them, then. Moveforward and have a good experience with them. Like don't, don'thesitate. Um, you know, I think, uh, like, yeah, finding somebodyyou can trust that you feel good talking to, you know, I thinkthat, you know, somebody that doesn't put up a lot of barriers tocommunication, um, uh, that's, that's important.
Um, and yeah, just finding somebody, like I said, that you cantrust, I think that's probably the most important component.Um,
[01:21:05]Randall Jacobs (host): I thinkbetween your many years of experience and your pedigree andtraining and your just the, you know, the way in which you'vecommunicated, what you do, how you do it, why you do it, where youcome from, and so on here. Um, you know, I would, I'm very excitedto see some of your work at Made and, uh, how would anyone who'sinterested, um, get ahold of you, uh, if they wanna have a bikebuilt?
[01:21:29]Brad Bingham: Uh, the very easiestway is to just contact through our website, uh, just to, uh,contact us right there, you know, it goes to, goes directly tomyself or my wife.
[01:21:39]Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Andwhat's that address?
[01:21:41]Brad Bingham: And that's binghambuilt bikes.com.
[01:21:44]Randall Jacobs (host): Excellent.Well, Brad, thank you so much for, uh, for your time and, uh, forletting me pick your brain a little bit and, uh, really lookingforward to continuing the conversation in person, uh, towards theend of August. When I see you in Portland,
[01:21:57]Brad Bingham: Yeah. Yeah. This hasbeen really fun and been neat getting to know you and, uh, wild howmany similarities we've, we have in our, in our history.
